The Search for Greener Grass - with Yael Iffergan and Adam Forbes

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  Erica D'Eramo 0:05

  Hello, and welcome to the Two Piers podcast. I'm your host, Erica D'Eramo. And today we have a special episode because we are actually having two guests join us, both of whom are repeat favorites of the show. So welcome back to Yael and Adam. Great to have you back. Today, we're gonna be talking about the concept of selecting opportunities, opportunity evaluation, in terms of our careers and this concept that the grass is always greener and maybe challenging that a bit.

  So just to introduce our two guests, Yael Iffergan is the owner and founder of InfiniTalent Partners, LLC, which is a full service recruitment and career coaching firm. She has been in the recruiting field for almost 20 years and has guided professionals at all levels of their career to successful change and has helped companies to hire top talent at all levels. She has a reputation for setting realistic expectations and for providing thoughtful counsel. She holds a bachelor's from UT Austin, which, fellow Longhorn there, and is a certified senior professional in human resources. So you can revisit Yael's previous episode where we talked about some similar topics in terms of career changes and pivots. We also have Adam Forbes joining us. And Adam has also been on our podcast previously talking about, again, some career changes and how to make the escape from the corporate world. So Adam worked for 25 years, building a corporate career and marketing to other businesses and governments. He left that path in 2020, with a goal to try lots of different things including writing, coaching, consulting and working with startups. Now his time is primarily spent running a startup accelerator program for a large corporate and also writing a book and coaching people on how to leave their corporate jobs safely and successfully. Adam's book is out on July 2 of this year. So it's coming up quickly. Welcome back, folks. So happy to have you back.

  Adam Forbes 2:27

  Thank you.

  Yael Iffergan 2:28

  Thanks for having us.

  Adam Forbes 2:29

  Great to be here.

  Erica D'Eramo 2:30

  Yeah. So this kind of topic we initially were going to talk about, we I had approached you both to talk about the concept of taking big leaps, and how to prepare for that, how to get your mindset, right in order to take big leaps. But as we were discussing this topic, I noticed that really, the common theme that was coming out was more around, you know, viewing potential opportunities, as always being better than our current situation, like the concept that the grass is always greener. So I want to know your thoughts for each of you. What do you consider this kind of like bias? Like, tell me a little bit about where you've seen this come through? And how you've seen it show up with either yourself or your clients that you've worked with? And I guess Yael, why don't you start?

  Yael Iffergan 3:17

  Sure, um, you know, I think it's funny that you say, Where have you seen it, either with yourself or with others? I'll start with myself, because I think that informs a lot of the coaching that I end up doing, because I have been through this process myself, you know, my last few jobs I found in I would tell people, I ended up in another bad job. And at some point, you really have to look in the mirror, and ask yourself, if you might be the common denominator here and be the problem. And I think for me, I was, you know, I don't fit. And you have to really look inside to figure out what the real core issue is. Is it really always the people around you? Or is it maybe you, right, and having to go through that process? And asking yourself some really hard questions that you might not want the answers to. So, you know, when I started coaching engagement, I always ask a lot of really tough questions. Right? Why do you think you want to leave this opportunity? And is there a way to salvage your current opportunity? Because there are some really redeeming factors there. So it's, it's a journey for sure. It is not always as linear as you might think, like, I'm ready to go, let's go. And then that's in end of story and grass is greener. So?

  Erica D'Eramo 4:52

  Yeah, yeah. I mean, that touches on a lot of common themes that come up through the coaching that I do with people who maybe even are intending to stay, but are sort of feeling dissatisfied. And certainly think about their options. Adam, how about you? Like, where have you seen some of these themes come through in the work that you've done? And you've done extensive interviews with people who are at these career change points or have gone undergone career changes?

  Adam Forbes 5:19

  Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, like, like, everyone, I suppose we all have this feeling that life must be better somewhere else. And when we're when we're not happy in our lives, at least. So I think it's inevitable that we imagine the world to be better somewhere else, particularly if where we're at is not where we think we should be. I mean, I think for myself, I, I've always had an even as a kid, I remember my parents say to me, Oh, God, you always want to do the next thing, you know, and I see it in my, my son now. So I think maybe there's something in the Forbes genes that always thinks life is better somewhere else than it is right here. But in people I work with, I think it's also really common, and she's saying this book to like, maybe 100 People for the, for the book to it's really common, I think. But I think the people that are successful and leaving, they take a much more realistic view, I think they recognize that life cannot be that much better somewhere else. So at least 10 per that. You know, that sense that it must be just temporary, temporary, by some a reality check or two that the questions whether it really is, you know, and of course, what you need to do is you need to go and do some tests, really, you know, because I think I think when we're not very happy, it's it's very easy to let our imaginations run wild. And assume everybody, everybody looks happier than us, don't they when we're not happy? Maybe they are? Maybe they're not. And, you know, you've got to go and really dig around a bit first, rather than just let that bias take hold.

  Erica D'Eramo 7:09

  Yeah, right, that there's that confirmation bias that starts to set in where if we, if we feel we need to alleviate a pain point, we're kind of looking anywhere to find that alleviation. That's why snake oil salesmen are so successful in you know, especially for intractable issue, if it was right, like really challenging issues where people start to feel hopeless, then it's easy to kind of look to some offering that somebody is putting out there and just see the good stuff in it and not maybe see the bad stuff. So what I'm when in the work that both of you have done, because I feel like in different ways you both sort of help people take that clear eyed view. I guess before we get into some of the tactics to mitigate that potential bias, like what are some red flags that you would say are an indication of maybe this like grass is greener thinking? Or what are some symptoms that might have you delve a little deeper just to make sure that you're getting to the core of the issue? Adam, do you have any thoughts?

  Adam Forbes 8:11

  Yeah, I mean, the thing, the thing that was always there for me, and maybe it's because it's sort of almost the opposite of the corporate career is having my own business. So I always wanted to have my own business, even as a kid. Definitely. When I started in a corporate life, and almost straight away, I would just, I looked at anybody that done that with real envy. And but yeah, I'd never did anything about it. You know, and I think so that's the first red flag that people are talking about things without having any experience and having a while and you start to hear the sort of idealized language, holding people on pedestals, putting people on pedestals, because that seemed to be living that life, and not recognizing maybe some of the downsides of that life only seeing the positives, the upsides, you know, so I would, you know, and Nick, sort of caricatures as well, you know, so, you know, I would look at these people like Elon Musk and Max. And sort of like, Oh, they've got it right. I've got it wrong. I mean, like, ridiculous, of course. But I think you know, when you aren't very happy in something, you do some really odd choices, odd observations. Odd. You have odd ideas in your head. And yeah, I'd look at some of these people going back a bit admittedly, and just think God, they'd gone they, they'd gone down a more interesting path than I've gone. Maybe I can get back on it if I do something different. So this sort of idealized language stare, sort of caricaturing people that you want to be Yeah, talking in a like a fantasy way that's not necessarily from realistic to the life you'll lead. Uh, you know, like for me? Oh, yeah, just gonna start my own business with three kids and mortgage just gonna, like, give it all up and go and start building something. And by the way, you don't even know what you're gonna build. Yeah. Okay, there's a warning bell. Yeah, it's actually more to do with what you're leaving, actually, it's more suitable you're leaving and really where you're heading? Right? It's actually the grass is not very good here. But then then then, then it's magic to amazing somewhere else.

  Erica D'Eramo 10:30

  Yes.

  Yael Iffergan 10:31

  Absolutely. I totally agree.

  Erica D'Eramo 10:33

  That rings true for me. Yeah.

  Yael Iffergan 10:34

  Yeah, you know, and when Adam talks about the fantasy, you know, that's what's a huge red flag for me, right? Like, I had an engagement recently with an executive who was who intrinsically had a problem with the construct of corporate America. And I said, Man, that's not gonna change when you go to a different job. Right? Like, that's, that's not how this works, you need to come to terms with the construct, or you need to start to make plans to go elsewhere, like a completely a complete left turn, because the construct is not going to be better elsewhere, right? Like, you can't change the way that leadership works. In an organization, that's just what it is, right. And, you know, he, for example, had expectations about what an organization should look like, and how people should behave. And I was like, you don't have any control over that, unless it's your company. And until it's your company, you got to get on the bandwagon, or, you know, figure something else out, you're gonna make yourself miserable. So I totally agree with Adam, it's when people start talking about these fantasy things, right? Or these idealistic ideas about what it should be and how it should be. And I said, Listen, you know, there is no such thing as perfection, you're never going to find an organization that has all of these things, because they're made up of people. And until the people report to you, you know, you have to figure out how to work within an organization. So totally agree.

  Erica D'Eramo 12:28

  Yeah. I think this, this part about the focus on the current dissatisfaction is a really big clue around, you know, that, that we're not setting ourselves up for success, if we're just trying to escape this element, and like, potentially jump from the, you know, from the frying pan into the fire, if we haven't painted a picture of what it is that we do want. So what would an ideal situation look like? And then, you know, like, how important are each of those elements, because as Yael says, like, we are not going to get all of them, you're, you're going to have to make some trade offs there. But which trade offs you want to make will be different depending on a) how sick of the current paradigm you are, right? Like maybe you could deal with really rigid structures for a while, but you need a break from that. So you want something a little more like fluid or expansive or a flat, flatter structure. Okay, so you could dip your toe in that for a while. But I think over time, and based on where we're coming from, like, what is important to us changes quite a bit. So what have you seen there?

  Adam Forbes 13:41

  I think that what you just said, that made me just think it's about being much more granular, isn't it? I think, we get a bit really, we get seduced by the grass being greener, because we we actually don't we keep it at this high level, this level here,

  Erica D'Eramo 13:56

  Like an airbrushed

  Adam Forbes 13:58

  Yeah, and so, of course, it's perfect, because there's no detail beneath any of it. And whereas we've got all the detail here, we're carrying all that baggage of how awful it is. And so yeah, but what you need to do, of course, is you need to treat both things fairly, you need to be honest about the things that are working for you here and are not working for you here. And equally some of the upsides as well as the risks of going to something different and I think as soon as you start breaking these things down often that's why we don't move to the to the grass, the new grass, the green book, grass, because we see through it and realize actually, it comes with some risk or it comes with some costs that we have specked out, you know, whatever he articulated described, and I think that's, that's that's why those things do stay in that sort of fantasy world because they haven't really got any legs to the just that just that their dreams.

  Yael Iffergan 14:53

  Well, I was just going to say you know, when you inventory, what is actually important to you, and then But it in the context of what is possible, right? Like, it is not possible to tell your boss how to do their job, not if you want to be successful in any way, shape or form, right? If you if as your inventory, you determine, for example, that it drives you bananas, so much so that it is affecting your mental health to work for somebody that you don't respect, you really got to weigh those things out, because you don't have control over the person that you report to. Right. So you have to be able to inventory those things. And either have a plan to identify them, when you're going in through an interview process, or figure out how to work with them, or how to say, I can't do this altogether, right, I have to have a plan for a completely different situation. So you know, inventorying not just the hard and fast things, right? Like comp and commute location, and industry, right? really identifying the things that are important to you, the things you have enjoyed the things you have not enjoyed the things you can deal with the things you cannot deal with, and really start to put those things together. So that you can screen an opportunity, whether that opportunity is entrepreneurship or not. Right. And, and, and reconciling all of those things with where you are at this point in your life, right? To Adams point like, oh, that sounds amazing. Yeah, you usually quit your job with three kids and a mortgage and just see what happens, right? Like, really being measured is important. And taking a a thoughtful approach is a good way to go.

  Erica D'Eramo 16:56

  I think I'm hearing like a couple themes come through here. So there's the one element of what we see the the amount of data we can get about the realistic opportunity is somewhat limited until you're in it right and you've both spoken a little bit. And we can explore more later about how do you get more data there? How do you fill in those gaps, because seeing the LinkedIn feed for that company, or seeing the Instagram posts for those employees or whatever, those are highly filtered, very narrow views of everything, that's good. And not everything is bad, or even people who have made large changes and say started their own business. They're not showing you, you know, the Friday night at 11pm, when they're sweating to figure out how to pay the contractor or whatever, right? Like, you're just seeing the best version of that. So there's that piece around, like accurate data. But I love the framing around the inventory. Because you know, coming from a risk management background, I've talked about like how I evaluated my opportunities, and it was in a spreadsheet, it was literally forced ranking what was most important to me. And so when everybody around me was saying like, "Oh, but it's so risky. It's so financially risky." It's like, yes, it there is financial risk here. But what are the non quantitative risks that are also here, and exist for every single opportunity I look at including the opportunity to stay where I'm at. And those risks included things like feeling fulfilled, having agency over my how I spend my time, feeling like I did the thing I was meant to do on this earth before I die, right? Like some of those things are very impactful. And the probabilities on them were really quite stark, right, if you look at it from that perspective, but anytime we have a heuristic or a bias, right, like the way our brain is trying to make these shortcuts for us, it can be really helpful to put some process in place to at least highlight where the faulty thinking is, so we can properly address it. And you've both mentioned, you know, the tendency to want to stay where we're at sometimes. So it's funny, we're having this conversation, because it's the flip of what we've talked about in the past, which is how do you know when it's time to leave, right? Like and get out? There is a human nature that says, you know, it's safer, where you're at, we don't like change, we know what the risks are here. And we're kind of talking about, like the flip side of that bias here. So when is it that you just want to get out and you're willing to like ignore all the other risks? So yeah, that heuristic works both ways.

  Yael Iffergan 19:49

  I was just gonna say, you know, I think that there's there's also something to be said for going on the journey, right, making some mistakes. Thinking you like a and then realizing that you hate a. Right. And, and exploring those things and being open to the feedback. Right? And, and that and that's how we grow and mature and do all these things. And listen, I am I am always supportive of people pursuing and prioritizing their mental health, right, if they end up in a situation that is not healthy for them that they cannot deal with, you know, the solution is not toughing it out. Right. So, you know, I am a huge proponent of that, but just making sure that you're taking a measured approach, right, that you're really thinking through those things. Because sometimes the risks are great, right? You know, it's one thing to go out on your own. But sometimes just leaving a company is a huge risk, right, you jump out of the frying pan into the fire, and really trying to manage some of that. So, you know, there's there's a lot at play. And I think if you take a thoughtful approach, and really think through what's important, really go on that journey, really ask yourself some tough questions, and ask other people tough questions, too. It can yield some really fantastic things.

  Erica D'Eramo 21:21

  Yeah.

  Adam Forbes 21:21

  Yeah, one of these, one of the women, I was actually the beginning of the year, who wanted to leave her corporate job. She was pretty senior. And she'd been there for quite a few years. She was really, really miserable. Worked, maybe for two or three months. And I actually gave her the, like a PDF version of the book before it was finished. Because she was I wanted her and she wanted as well, it's good for me to, to work through the exercises in the book. And after, I don't know, we went back and forth quite a few times, stay go stay go, they don't. And then then she said she was going to stay. And I think, but she was staying with, with more intent. You know, she was staying because she recognized she had done that in through the exercises. She'd done that kind of inventory of what was good about the work, she was more objective from it, she was less emotional, she'd written it down, and it was still there. The next day, she still agreed with what was there on a good day, and they're on a bad day, you know, and she and she saw it for what it was she was much more objective about how she how she saw the benefits, and the costs or risks of staying and decided that overall, on balance, it was better. But what she also did through that process was she saw that she could leave, she felt agency she felt choice over staying or going out she decided to so she we we actually didn't do that much exploration of the greener grass so much. That is more of what I'm saying. And I think people have said that to me, since that I've read read early copies of the book have said that it made them want to stay, which is like was on the one hand was like a bit of a oh god, I've really screwed this up, then if people read a book called Corporate escapology, and then stay put, but actually, of course, it doesn't really matter. I mean, I don't, I'm not, I'm not being paid on how many people leave their jobs, I actually just want to make make, make people not feel trapped. And if they

  Erica D'Eramo 23:29

  Yeah.

  Adam Forbes 23:30

  If they don't feel trapped, because they see these, the benefits, and they feel choice, and they feel that they could go if they want to, then great, I think part of the reason is, life is so sort of incremental, and we're just constantly moving forward, not really reflecting much back. And so we find ourselves unhappy, we don't really even know why it might only be two or three things. And if we explored those two or three things and found different ways to solve them, or whatever problem solve them or tackle them differently, or, or take different decisions with them or have those conversations with people that person hands on for whatever, you know, that is maybe a more short term solution to the problem that fits much better with their needs as a family and, you know, in your financial situation there is so sometimes it's not about leaving sometimes it's more about just like working out, can I make some adjustments to what I've got today and then you don't even need that green grass. You make it green where you are.

  Erica D'Eramo 24:37

  There's there's that element that you mentioned that is so hugely impactful that I think a lot of people miss and it's the feeling of choice, that feeling of agency of not being trapped and I think a lot of people forget that they they really are choosing to go to work and I'm and when I mention that to people sometimes like you don't have to do this job you don't have to show up and they say, Well, I have to, because I have to put food on the table like, Hey, I'm not saying that quitting wouldn't cause major terrible things to happen right now, if you were to just walk away today. But that is a rational, informed decision made out of agency that you are not giving yourself credit for in terms of like choosing to show up, because it aligns with your value of feeding your family of being a caretaker of whatever that is, it is still values-aligned. And I think reminding people sometimes that this, you are opting in every day, and you're doing this because that's the strategy you've set. You can make different decisions and take different, you know, costs and benefits into account. But this is the one that you've chosen right now to maximize, you know, the value. And I think people become, you know, the corporate world sometimes just makes you forget that you have that option to walk away sometimes and just reminding people like you or nobody is dragging you into work, like, bound and chained and forcing you, so...

  Yael Iffergan 26:15

  Yeah. But you know, to that end, I also think it's important that people work every day, to expand their option opportunities, if you will, right, I do the work. So that if you are faced with this position, that you're miserable at your job, and you want to go somewhere else, that you actually have the toolbox in place to make that happen. Right. So things like networking, you know, one of the things that I do is teach people how to network for the purpose of their careers, right, rather than other things. So you know, understanding other jobs, meeting people that have potential to be impactful to you having a circle that is supportive of your professional endeavors, right. So if you're sitting in your little bubble all the time, you're really minimizing your options, right? And if you decide to take this job anymore, I'm gonna quit. And then you're faced with, you know, conducting a job search via LinkedIn, it's going to be real painful. So yeah, really understanding that it takes a village as kitschy as that sounds right. And no, we're not talking about raising kids. But it really does take a village to move everything forward at every point in your life. It's your family, it's your friends, it's your tennis buddies, it's your church colleagues, it is, you know, all of these things that have the potential to be impactful, understanding their value to you the doors, they can potentially open, the journey that they can help you through, you know, really putting those things in place, so that when you need them, they are there for you, right, and they don't feel used or abused, right? Like, oh, you're only calling me because you need something now, you know, really nurturing a network long term, so that you have these things in place when you need them, right. So, you know, I always say companies should never treat people with options badly. Because they can just run for the hills. And so it's your job as an individual, to make sure that you put the infrastructure in place so that you have options.

  Erica D'Eramo 28:45

  Also, building a network while you're happy and fulfilled is a lot easier than building a network when you're miserable, right? Like, we've met those people where it's like, Hi, my name is so and so I hate my job. I feel miserable. Like it's, it's, it is tough, but I get like, I feel a lot of empathy for that. But I think it's a good point that, you know, don't wait to build your support network, and your professional network until you're sad and you want to leave, like do it while the grass is green.

  Adam Forbes 29:17

  That's why you feel trapped. It's the lack of options that you have. It's not as you say, Okay, it's not really that you're being bound to go into work. It's that this is the only thing you have on the table right now. So you have to go. So I totally agree. You've got to create those options. And because you know, it's not just about what you're gonna get miserable. Either the company may decide they don't meet you, and then you literally are going to be a victim. Okay, now I have to start from ground zero again, of course it's never ground zero. But you know, you've got to start again to kind of create those options. And I don't really know why people don't do that. There must be one of those cognitive biases there that people stick to what, once they sort of feel settled, they just don't explore options. I don't know whether they fear that they might, I don't know whether it's inefficient for the brain or whether it's that they've they're worried those options might start to tantalize them away from something that might be better perceived as better for them. But there must be a bias there somewhere that is blocking people from coming up with options or or managing multiple options.

  Erica D'Eramo 30:32

  I think there's a generational element here as well. Yeah, I mean, yeah, there is probably a million reasons. But yeah, the this idea that, like the loyalty is to way with companies and individuals, and you're gonna have a 40 year career with one company, I think, you know, like Gen Z definitely isn't viewing it that way. Most Millennials are not. But I think that that existed amongst a lot of people for a period of time. And it was seen as like, disloyal to be going and looking at options. But also, like, we got a lot of introverts out here in the streets, and we, right, maybe it can be exhausting to be meeting a lot of people and people especially that are balancing like their, you know, tennis or whatever, and, and feeding their four cats and medicating them. All the different things are balancing outside of the workplace. What I love that Yael has mentioned a couple times, like in the past podcast episode is your network is not just like networking hour at the whatever industry event, right? It is your tennis buddy. It is your hairdresser. It is the person at synagogue, like it is all of those people.

  Yael Iffergan 31:46

  That's right. Yeah. Not being afraid to have the work conversation with people you have a personal relationship with? First of all, we're multi dimensional, right? And so I tell people all the time, you know, it's Okay to talk about work in a social setting, right, at least helping people understand what it is you do and what that looks like, and so forth. And you know, listen, I'm victim to that, too. I always thought this was real poignant, I, I'm a yogi, I practice yoga on a regular basis. And I had developed a very good girlfriend who I practiced with twice a week for five years, before I figured it out what she does for a living shame on me, shame on me for not asking the question, right. And so it's just about understanding who people are, and what people do. And not just for yourself, but also so that you can help them. Be interested. Exactly right. We spend 40 plus hours a week and our jobs, there's no shame in asking what it is that people do with those 40 hours a week, so that you can expand your network, you can potentially help them in their situation, et cetera. Right. So it's really about being open minded. It's about exploring people, and really wanting to be curious and helpful. It doesn't have to be quite so needy, or inappropriate, right? Like it should be genuine, right? It's a huge part of who people are. So you know, where I always start,

  Erica D'Eramo 33:34

  We met through yoga, we actually met through yoga,

  Yael Iffergan 33:37

  We did.

  Erica D'Eramo 33:38

  That's right. Like just somebody who had who said, we "I think you guys both are, have some commonalities in your career paths. Let me introduce you." Somebody who didn't have any of that commonality. But they said, like, I think I know enough about both of you to say that you should talk. And now you are one of the people I can go to for data to help. Like, if I am looking at options, whether you know, for myself or clients, I'm helping clients evaluate stuff. You're one of the people that I can go to to help fill in some of the gaps because you have such a broad view over so many industries to be like, hey, what's the thing I'm not seeing here? What's the thing I'm not understanding? So it's not even just to find new opportunities, your network can help you evaluate opportunities that come to you and might look green might look greener. And you're gonna be like, what's the real dirt here so and so like you've worked in this realm, you've done this job, you know, somebody at this company like, what what am I not seeing? What am I not thinking about here?

  Absolutely.

  What have you seen Adam that works for people when you, when they're doing this option evaluation?

  Adam Forbes 34:48

  Well, I suppose most people have some kind of idea. I think of what they want to do, even if it's not But what they'll end up doing. So I mean, the obvious one is to trial it in some way to try that kind of option out if you can, you know, there are loads of things you can do there. I mean, you can go and sit with somebody doing that job, you can go shadow somebody, you can go and just have a coffee with somebody and ask them how it works. Or you can try and practice it in some way. So if you know, the side, hustle is the obvious thing, where you just try to do it along the side of your job and just try out some of those things. So you, you just start to try and make it real, rather than, you know, taking it out of that dream fantasy, and start to see and you start. I mean, the beauty of that is not only do you start to see whether it's viable, but you also start to see whether you're you like it, and and whether you're good at it, as well. So you start to get a

  Erica D'Eramo 35:55

  It's like a pilot program.

  Adam Forbes 35:57

  Yeah, that's sort of that sort of thing, where you're just testing it in the real world, rather than in your head where it is where it either, I mean, I've two things happened. And they were options, either you they live in this sort of fantasy world where that would be amazing if you only or you kill these things prematurely, because you don't know enough about them, or they seem they seem too risky. So at least taking them out of your head allows you to test certain variables. I mean, not necessarily even viability may not be the first one you're really but at least test whether you actually like the idea, because I'll tell you one thing that just sort of strikes me when when I did eventually mature my thinking about what it was to be an entrepreneur. And recognized that there are multiple variants of entrepreneurs, it's a spectrum like everything, I did start to see that actually, I was an entrepreneur and I had been right all along. But there were many years where I thought I was no good at this and failing at it and couldn't do it. And there are other people that weren't cut out for this. And I wasn't because I had the wrong, you know, the wrong kind of template to match myself to. And as soon as I modified the template, you know, I fit it, of course, because it was really just around me all the time. So I think some of this is just about, it's a bit like the networking, it's just going outside of your head to somebody else to the real world to test, test some of those things, you know partly what you're testing, it might be like maybe even was me for a while, actually, you're not ready for this year, you need to do some work on yourself, you need to do some other things,

  Erica D'Eramo 37:40

  which is the successful outcome though. I just want to be clear about it. Because I think like, with like with projects, right? When you're doing like appraise stage projects, no project manager wants their project to get killed right then and there's this bias to like, push it through, we got to push the project or no, that's not like the goal we're setting here with some of these pilots is not prove to myself that I will be happy doing this. It's the open ended question of like, what here works? What fulfills me? Will I have a regret if I don't do this? And if if the answer is actually I don't like this, or it's not viable, it's not feasible. I'm not cut out for it, whatever that means. That's a successful outcome. Because it means that you won't live with the regret of not having done that, because you answered the question, right? Like, that's huge. There's so much value in that. But we get caught up in our egos because we set the goal as being making this work instead of the goal being get data about whether I'll like, whether this will make me happier.

  Yael Iffergan 38:47

  I was just gonna say when you go about life with that attitude, right? Like, let me just, I'm just gonna test this out like, this seems interesting to me. Like, I wonder what's involved in this. And you go through life exploring these different options, and then you're open to both the positive and negative feedback like, No, I hated it. I really didn't. Like that happened to me with my college major. I was certain. I was certain, like my degrees in marketing, and I started my career out that way. And I hated it. Like I couldn't stand it. Right. And so being open to that feedback from yourself, do I like this? Do I not like this? Rather than going in with a idealistic view, like, Oh, this is gonna be amazing. And there's, there's no such thing as failure like that. Sadly, we might not like it. So I think when you go about life, that way, curious and open to possibilities and so forth, you end up having a much richer experience.

  Erica D'Eramo 39:53

  That sunk cost bias of like, I invested all this money or whatever it was, time, opportunity. So therefore I need to see it through to success? No, maybe what you did is you invested in the knowledge and the satisfaction with going back to your previous role, like maybe it gave you that calm to go through life and be like, No, I wasn't supposed to be a restauranteur, or I wasn't supposed to be a professional yoga teacher, or whatever this thing is that you thought was going to bring you joy. Maybe you invested all of that time, effort, knowledge, money, to be happy where you are. And go back to where you came from. So Adam, what were you to say?

  Adam Forbes 40:36

  Yeah, I was, I was thinking about the options in the plural, keeping them as well. Because if you're not careful, you create an option. And then everything has to that causes new sunk cost bias, you know, everything has to it has to work. Now I've given up everything for this. And so much better.

  Erica D'Eramo 40:56

  Yes!

  Adam Forbes 40:57

  To keep these things running in parallel or keep, I have multiples of them. I feel like that was I mean, obviously incredibly fortunate position to leave a job and get redundancy pay. So it bought me time, but I was really clear that I didn't want to just jumping into one thing. And you know, all the all the best practice about building a startup says, You've got to be totally focused, nothing else, you can't have a job alongside it. Well, it might be true if you're gonna go and you know, build one of these, you know, YouTube or something, but, but it wasn't really ever I was gonna build. And so, and the thing that I missed most was variety. I had one thing, you know, it was bigger than one thing. But um, so I said, right, if I'm going to have this privilege of leaving a job and doing something different, I'm gonna damn well make sure there's multiple things here. And of course, it creates a bit of redundancy, if things don't work out, which some of them didn't, didn't work out. But it gives me something that I now value more than anything, which is variety. To be honest, I value it more than any of the individual options, I think just has to be a half a liter. So I can pull choices I can make each day what I'm going to work on, things that I know, I'm better at, as well as things I know that are good for me to do, you know, all this, all this sort of mix of things. And, and I'm not saying everybody can live a life necessarily like that, hoping to but not everybody may want to either, but at least wait trying four or five things, I can get a sense where I'm most likely to be successful and replace that income that I was I lost through that corporate.

  Erica D'Eramo 42:47

  Yeah, that's like a coach's dream as well, because that's so data rich and a) it keeps an open mind to curiosity that's like such a key enabler that is, again, threaded throughout this entire conversation that we've been having, whether it's networking, whether it's options, but the data then that you can ask either as a coach or ask yourself is like, what activities am I most alive doing? What refuels me? Where have I been the happiest? Where have I felt the most connected? Whereas my like, what are commonalities in the groups I've worked with, that I've enjoyed working with? And there's so much data there that you can focus on on building the amalgamation of the things and understanding like some of those will be trade offs. But versus focusing on the things you don't like, right? Like all the things that you hate, that you're trying to get away from, that's good to understand it, but then always the flip side of like, Okay, if you don't like that, tell me what it is that you do, like, Where have you thrived? Where have you, like, gotten up in the morning and been like, Yes, I get to do XYZ today that's on the calendar today. And so yeah, having that variety, it means such a data rich environment. That's great.

  Adam Forbes 44:02

  Yeah. And the thing with the thing you hate reframed, you may hate much less, you know, so an example where, you know, I, I didn't particularly like working for a corporate so I thought, I'm definitely won't. I'll stay clear from corporates. But of course, turns out I'm actually quite good at working with corporate so but working in a different way, with corporates in it making a career out of it, but actually

  Erica D'Eramo 44:33

  Opting in?

  Adam Forbes 44:34

  Yeah, I feel like I feel it's playing to more of my strengths. Why would I? Why would I jettison all that experience I had, just for a sort of principle about something. Instead, reframe the relationship, find where you can add most value, play to your strengths, enjoy what you're doing, and, you know, and see if you can make a career or create an option that way too. And I think That's, it's, you know, it's a luxury to kind of step out and step away from it. But if there's one thing I'm trying to do with the book, it's trying to encourage that way, just that much like with your coaching, step back and say, How could I get what I need or what I'm good at, but just in a different way. And I think just having a bit of space to do that, because we're, you know, we're so kind of like, saturated by stuff that, you know, the job the life, rush, rush, rush, rush, rush notification to them everywhere, that we just don't give ourselves that sort of time. And so then when we're short of time, we're just in binary mode all the time, happy, not happy, happy, happy, you know, Sunday night, hate Mondays, you know, it's like, we're just living this sort of world like, this is, you know, is destined to make us unhappy? Or we do, you know, or we end up like split spending. Masses of money to be make ourselves happy to justify the misery have to be. Yeah, yeah, it's just so it's just

  Erica D'Eramo 46:08

  There's all this stuff about money won't buy you happiness, money will help you create the conditions, though, to do that, right. So like, that? Yael?

  Yael Iffergan 46:19

  Like, yeah, you know, I completely agree with Adam, you know, it really, it all comes back to understanding yourself and understanding what's important to you, you know, what Adam said about reframing the condition? It's pure genius, right? Because, really, and truly, you know, just because you leave corporate America doesn't mean you can have no interaction with corporate America in any way, shape, or form. Right? Like, I didn't fit inside organizations. But guess who pays my bills right now, all these organizations, I just don't need to be in them. Right? And so right outside of the confines, right? And so, and again, it all comes down to inventorying what makes you happy? What makes you unhappy? And then in what context? Right? And then how do I figure that out? And, you know, we kind of touched on it at a high level, but I want to make sure that it's, it's clear, I'm a huge fan of informational interviews, you know, talking to people who are doing what you want to do, who can give you straight talk about what the risks are, what the challenges are, what the benefits are, you know, understanding what different organizations look like, understanding people's pain points, people's happy points, you know, really getting in there. And, you know, I think that people think that it's hard to get those kinds of conversations going. And there certainly is a right and a wrong way. You know, like, Adam, for example, recently posted on LinkedIn, I'm looking to talk to people who have done X, Y, and Z. Who do you know, well, guess what, now that's a hot conversation, they're taking your phone call, and they're excited to talk to you and so forth. Right, expanding your network, knowing how to ask for help, knowing how to ask for connections, you know, recognizing that, you know, on LinkedIn, people generally are used to being sold. And that's it. But when somebody comes at you with a genuine conversation and genuine interest, take the time, take the risk, like what is really the risk involved here. Right, and being open minded. And

  Erica D'Eramo 48:44

  I think that's the piece around like, people like to talk about themselves. Like, we like to share our insights. And so when you're asking somebody, I think where we all get a little hesitant is like, am I being asked to do something? Am I being asked to invest in somebody, and somebody that I don't know that I haven't had any reciprocal relationship with yet. But a having that warm intro is super helpful, because somebody that can vouch for you that can say, like, Hey, I know this person, I think, you know, you could have a good conversation. I think that's really, really helpful. But even with a cold, a cold intro, being clear about what you're hoping to get from it, like, it looks like you have XYZ value or XYZ experience. I am looking at these areas, I would love to know what you know, name it, whatever it is, but not asking like for somebody to do something for you right out the gates, even though they are being generous. If they agree to have that conversation. They are doing something for you. They are being generous with their time and their insights. But yeah, we all like to talk about it to talk about ourselves. I do want to come to this point, about like, because I think we've we've all kind of touched on it, that I'm hearing something come through about this, like triage that maybe need needs to happen sometimes if we are unhappy, and starting to look at like, oh, is the grass greener over there? Like, what is the neighbor's yard look like? That question of sort of like what's in your control right now? And then, like, can you actually change the situation? And sometimes the answer is yes. At high cost, or high uncertainty. Sometimes the answer is no, we can't change it. And then the question is like, Okay, well, what can you change? And maybe it's your, how you relate to it, which Adam brought up. Maybe it's like, just how are we going to, like, the last level of triage is just like, how are we going to create a condition where I can survive and get a little that breathing room, so I'm not in that like survival mode, so that I can then start in a, in a thoughtful way, exploring opportunities without that pressure of like, I gotta get out, I gotta get out. So that like hierarchy, we'll call it hierarchy of controls in engineering, I guess. But like, it's sort of

  Yael Iffergan 51:01

  I would love to talk to you this.

  Erica D'Eramo 51:02

  What's in your control?

  Yeah, let's go!

  Yael Iffergan 51:04

  You know, I think, I think that I read this somewhere. And I was so profound to me. But you know, that old adage of, if do something you'll love, and you'll never work a day in your life, I think that is the most ridiculous thing. Because not everybody can monetize their passion. And so recognizing that fulfillment, for example, may or may not come from your job from the thing that brings you money. Right. And so if, for example, your beef is that you're not fulfilled, find fulfillment elsewhere. Right. You know, I think that people think that their jobs should provide these holistic, all encompassing situations for them. And that is not realistic. Right? So for example,

  Erica D'Eramo 51:04

  It's also not healthy, because then it goes away. And you're screwed.

  Yael Iffergan 51:20

  That's right, eventually, because you've turned it into your J. O, B. Right? And so really understanding what are the things that work can fulfill? And what are the things that work cannot fulfill? And then how do I fill in the gaps elsewhere, right. And so it might be, I want more time with my kids, great then make more time for your kids. Let's talk about boundaries. And honestly, like, I gotta tell you, the TikiToki is full of really fantastic content about creating boundaries for your work, right. And so you don't have to get everything from your job. And really understanding that there are ways to get what you need that don't, that don't surround the thing that brings you money at the end of the day.

  Erica D'Eramo 53:04

  Honestly, like, that was a realization that didn't come to me until much later. And it came to me only after I essentially said I'm done. I'm, I'm leaving, like, I'm gonna take what turned out to be a sabbatical. But once I said that, then I was able to create so much more space. And people would say to me, like, man, for somebody who's only got like, a couple months left in this role, or, you know, before you go off into the sunset, you sure are like knocking it out of the park. And I had to laugh. And it was like, because I've stopped gripping the wheel so tight, right, because this isn't my everything anymore. Because this is it's put it in perspective and in context for what it is giving me. And now I can be present. Now not staying up all hours trying to give it 110% And showing up exhausted in the morning and burnt out and like stressed out, now I have the like clarity, to show up, do my job and then go get the rest and recuperation than I need. But I think that you know that they're, after the Industrial Revolution, pretty much like people would like live in communities built for by companies, every they would buy from stores, that the company's stocked everything, the families would all hang out with other families from that company, like everything became, you know, given by the company, and that's shifted over time. But we still see the remnants of that and some of the language about like, "We're family." No, you're my employer. My family doesn't lay me off. My family can't give me a performance rating at the end of the year and or like deduct my pay. That's not family, and I don't want it to be family that's not healthy, right? Like your job should can't and shouldn't be giving everything like that to you because then it holds you hostage. Adam I'm sure you probably have some thoughts on that.

  Adam Forbes 54:51

  Yeah, I do. I mean, I just I feel like this is so true. I don't quite know what sort of happens that you end up sort of falling into this way of thinking, but I mean, I put a lot of it down to sort of, there is a sort of subversive element to corporate language, particularly that is doing things like the family. And the other one is purpose, you know, trying to get us all to kind of fit with purpose or company purpose, I just feel now was such a con, because I was, I was trying to, because it was such a big part of my life that I thought, wow, I've got to make it really count. Now, it's got to count for so much. And because I couldn't really make it linked to my purpose and its purpose, I think I always felt really dissatisfied. And leaving it all. I now realize that work much that I can say Yael, is about making money. So I can afford to do things outside of work. And it feels so refreshing to have that way, that way of life. But I think in a way, it can only happen because my career is not so bound up with it, I'm not so bound up in a career anymore. I don't have to feel quite so long term about it. So you know, don't have to be thinking like, when's my next move that everything is sort of bought into like, like, where you're going next? The future.

  Erica D'Eramo 56:15

  It becomes life or death, right? Yeah. When all your I mean, this is we've talked about this in both of our conversations that we've had previously. But it's like, when your community is entirely in that, that job when your identity is tied up in a job when your network, your support your like, your healthcare,

  Adam Forbes 56:39

  financial future...

  Erica D'Eramo 56:39

  ...until recently, your ability to feed your family, literally everything is in one bucket, then yeah, it does make it really high stakes. And I think that's why people stay past the point of being unhappy, which then again, so it's like a vicious cycle, right, like this life, the course the lifespan of the unhappiness, everything gets tied up, you feel trapped, then you become supremely unhappy and happy. And then it's just like, you're looking for any life raft to get you out of that situation, and might jump to something that's not as...

  Yael Iffergan 57:13

  Or you're just gonna recreate it, you're just going to recreate

  Erica D'Eramo 57:16

  Or recreate and recreate it. Yes, yeah, if you haven't done the work. So to kind of bring this into a landing, it sounds like really doing the thinking, really doing the self exploration, the self work, hopefully, if that's difficult, people can reach out to somebody like one of us to do some of that exploration to ask the questions, they can buy the book that will be on sale very soon. Can go through some of the exercises, and, and lean on people like us who have gone through these changes who have worked with people to help do that exploration, do the spreadsheet, do whatever it is, do the mind mapping that will will get you there so that you can really understand what shade of green you want. What are your What are your key takeaways? Let's start with the Yael. What what do you want people at listeners to take away as their like headline if once they walk away today.

  Yael Iffergan 58:24

  Really make sure that you're making thoughtful decisions based on the right information, gather the information so that you can make a thoughtful decision that will help get you to the place that you want to be.

  Erica D'Eramo 58:39

  Yeah, awesome. Adam, how about you?

  Adam Forbes 58:42

  I would say I would definitely say say the same about that get the information. But the the other thing that we haven't really touched on too much, but I do think is linked to all of this is be patient. You know, it took time to build this career, you know, you've got you owe it to yourself to take time to find the next step of this, you know, it's not, it's not a race, it's far better to get into the right lane, you know, or find the next lily pad or whatever metaphor is, you know, so, so be patient. And part of being patient, I think is creating some space for yourself so you can properly think about this stuff. And I'm not saying you need to sabbatical, you need to go and leave work or anything. Just find space, you know, walks in fresh air for an hour. Amazing what your brain can do when it's got no phone buzzing out, you know, children, annoying you, no work colleagues annoying you, just give yourself time. I mean, I think to be honest, a week or two of with some walks every other day. It's amazing what you'll come up with. I think the brain is so powerful when it's just left to just process things without all the noise we're cramming into it and and do that you're be surprised at some, how you feel about yourself how you feel about the world. And what options you may well have that you hadn't necessarily thought of before.

  Erica D'Eramo 1:00:11

  Walks, yeah, walks, like really changes the way your brain is the brain is processing information. The other thing that is tactical that I've seen good results with is that 15 minutes of journaling, like freeform writing to get the words out of your brain. And it's surprising doing that a few days a week will really kind of illuminate some things. How should people be connecting with you? Adam, how about you? How do you like people to connect with you? Find your works.

  Adam Forbes 1:00:42

  I've got a Substack called Corporate Escapologist. Substack for years.

  Erica D'Eramo 1:00:48

  We'll put it in the show notes.

  Adam Forbes 1:00:50

  Yeah, I've got Instagram. I've got LinkedIn, corporateescapology.com. And the book, obviously

  Erica D'Eramo 1:00:56

  And the book!

  Adam Forbes 1:00:56

  Why the second I met mentioned.

  Erica D'Eramo 1:00:59

  Awesome. And Yael, how should people connect with you?

  Yael Iffergan 1:01:03

  I'm on LinkedIn, they're welcome to find me. My website is InfiniTalent.net. My email is Yael@InfiniTalent.net. And I invite anybody to call and chat. I always do a free 30 minute consultation. If somebody just wants some high level feedback. I'm delighted to chat with them anytime.

  Adam Forbes 1:01:26

  Nice.

  Erica D'Eramo 1:01:27

  Awesome. We'll put all of those links in the show notes and in the summary that we host on our website. So for those that are looking for that that's a twopiersconsulting.com Under content. So thank you so much for being so generous with your time. I really appreciate you sharing all your insights, and I can't wait to have you back on the podcast friends as triple triple attendee guests.

  Yael Iffergan 1:01:53

  Thanks for having us.

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The Search for Greener Grass: Insights from Yael Iffergan and Adam Forbes

In this episode of our podcast, host Erica D'Eramo sits down with Yael Iffergan and Adam Forbes to discuss the intricacies of career changes and the pursuit of fulfilling work. This conversation dives into personal experiences, common biases, and practical advice for anyone considering a significant career shift.

The Bias of Assuming Opportunities Are Always Better

Introduction to Career Changes

Erica opens the discussion by highlighting a common bias: the assumption that new opportunities are inherently better than the current situation. This mindset can often lead to unrealistic expectations and poor decision-making.

Personal Experiences with Career Pivots

Yael Iffergan shares her journey of realizing that sometimes the problem lies within oneself rather than external factors. Adam Forbes, drawing from extensive interviews, notes that these themes frequently emerge in conversations with people undergoing career changes.

The "Grass is Greener" Mentality

Idealizing Others' Lives

Erica and Adam discuss the dangers of the "grass is greener" mentality, where individuals assume that others have it better. They stress the importance of recognizing and challenging confirmation bias, which can lead to unrealistic expectations.

Recognizing Misleading Idealizations

Adam expresses envy towards those who have started their own businesses, despite not taking steps towards entrepreneurship themselves. He acknowledges that idealized portrayals of successful entrepreneurs can be misleading.

Workplace Dissatisfaction and Setting Goals

Evaluating Alternatives Realistically

Yael agrees with Adam that fantasy expectations in organizations are a red flag. Erica and Adam discuss the necessity of being granular when evaluating new opportunities, emphasizing the importance of honest assessments of both pros and cons.

Prioritizing Personal Values in Career Decisions

Informing Career Decisions

Erica highlights the importance of inventorying personal values and priorities when making career decisions. She discusses the limitations of data in evaluating opportunities and the need to consider non-quantitative risks.

Addressing Familiarity Bias

Erica also points out the bias towards staying in familiar situations and the importance of overcoming this heuristic to make informed decisions.

Career Growth and Decision-Making

Exploring Personal Goals

Yael emphasizes a measured approach to pursuing mental health and personal growth. Adam shares an exercise from a book that helped a woman evaluate job satisfaction, leading to increased objectivity and agency.

Feeling Less Trapped

Adam discusses helping people feel less trapped in their jobs, not necessarily to leave, but to explore and evaluate their current situations objectively.

Networking and Job Satisfaction

Building a Support Network

Erica and Yael discuss the importance of agency and optionality in work life. They note that building a support network is easier when one is happy and fulfilled rather than miserable.

Exploring Career Options

Adam emphasizes the importance of creating options beyond the current job and addresses the fear of missing out (FOMO) as a potential barrier. Erica and Yael also touch on the generational differences in loyalty and job longevity.

Testing Business Ideas

Real-World Experimentation

Adam suggests testing business ideas through shadowing, networking, or practice to gauge viability and personal fit. Erica and Adam discuss the importance of self-reflection and personal growth in entrepreneurship.

Embracing Feedback

Erica and Yael emphasize the need to gather data and be open to feedback to find fulfillment in career decisions.

Career Development and Personal Growth

Data-Rich Environment for Growth

Erica discusses the value of a data-rich environment for coaching, networking, and personal growth. Adam highlights the importance of self-reflection and understanding one's priorities.

Expanding Networks

Erica and Yael agree on the value of informational interviews and expanding one's network to explore new opportunities.

Work-Life Balance and Fulfillment

Setting Boundaries

Erica discusses the importance of warm introductions and clear communication in networking. Yael shares her thoughts on the notion that doing what you love means you'll never work a day in your life.

Fulfillment Beyond Work

Both Erica and Yael emphasize that fulfillment cannot solely come from one's job. They stress the need to create boundaries and prioritize personal needs outside of work to maintain a healthy work-life balance.

Finding Purpose and Avoiding Burnout

Thoughtful Decision-Making

Adam discusses feeling trapped in a corporate job due to the high stakes of identity, community, and financial well-being. Erica agrees, noting that people often stay in unhappy jobs for these reasons.

Patience and Reflection

Adam suggests patience in finding the next career step and recommends taking walks and journaling to gain insights.

How to Get In Touch

Adam’s book, Corporate Escapology launches July 2nd and you can also find him on his Corporate Escapologist Substack. You can find Yael over on LinkedIn or at InfiniTalent.net.

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This episode provides valuable insights into the complexities of career changes, highlighting the importance of self-reflection, realistic evaluations, and building a supportive network. Whether you're considering a major career pivot or seeking more fulfillment in your current role, these discussions offer practical advice and food for thought.

The Rooted Renegade - with Rebecca Arnold, JD, CPCC, PCC

• full transcript for this episode

  Please note that the following transcript is auto-generated and may contain errors.

  Erica D'Eramo 0:05

  Hello and welcome to the Two Piers podcast. I'm your host, Erica D'Eramo. And today we have Rebecca Arnold joining us. So Rebecca is a professional certified coach and the founder of Root Coaching and Consulting LLC, a holistic leadership coaching firm. She's also the author of The Rooted Renegade: Transform Within, Disrupt the Status Quo, and Unleash Your Legacy, which will be published by Greenleaf book group in June of 2024. The book is her call to action; part roadmap and part step by step guide to create a joyful, harmonious life that meets the challenges of our times. Her clients are mission driven leaders seeking holistic success in the fields of education, medicine, law, academia, and social impact organizations. And attorney by training, Rebecca has a background in education policy. More importantly, she's known as a straight talking big hearted coach. She also happens to be a dog mom, a human mom, and a spunky wife. We are so excited to have Rebecca, join us today and share some of her insights on creating a rooted life.

  Rebecca, Hi, thanks for joining us.

  Rebecca Arnold 1:23

  It is a pleasure to be with you. Thanks for having me.

  Erica D'Eramo 1:26

  Yeah, absolutely. So let's just start with kind of my typical question that I asked every guest, tell us a little bit about your origin story. So what what brought you to the Rebecca that we meet today,

  Rebecca Arnold 1:42

  So many things like most people. So I studied psychology in college, and I was deeply fascinated with education policy, which led me to law school to work on equity issues in education. And I worked in the federal government, which was a fascinating social experiment. And how big change happens and seeing kind of how the sausage gets made behind the scenes, which is probably a conversation for another day. And then after that, I had my two kids, and I was doing consulting with education, nonprofits. And I finally found my dream job. I was ecstatic. I was doing policy work in the education space, we were making tectonic impacts in education systems, there was brand new legislation, I was on top of the world. And you know where this is going. I colossally burned out. And I had a real crisis of a call this like values collision, where my values around social impact and education equity and all of that were conflicting with my own well being my values of family and connection, I was traveling a lot and not able to show up for my kids in the way that I wanted. And I really wasn't prioritizing my physical and mental health. So I entered this period of extreme burnout and kind of collapse. And through that process, there was a long healing journey. And as a part of that, I started asking myself this question of, What do I do next? If I've just experienced my dream job, and that is no longer an option? Where do I go next? It was this real existential reckoning. And I started reconnecting with my psychology roots. And I remembered somewhere in the back of my mind this idea about coaching that I'd heard about somewhere along the way. And so I took a class in coaching. And I, you know, that experience when it feels like puzzle pieces, just click into place, and it's your you have this like full body? Yes, that is how it felt after having this coaching experience. And so it was very clear to me that that was my direction, and a way to integrate lots of different interests that I have and support folks along the way, especially in particular to avoid the experience that I had at burnout.

  Erica D'Eramo 4:24

  Yeah, that origin story absolutely resonates for me, and I'm sure resonates for a lot of folks listening of you know, when you find something that you think is the dream, there is almost like an identity crisis that happens when you realize that the future you'd envisioned is not going to be the path that you're going to take. So yeah, absolutely. Yeah, really.

  Rebecca Arnold 4:45

  And lots of folks feel lost in that gap up trying to figure out what's next because we don't talk about that enough.

  Erica D'Eramo 4:52

  Yeah, yeah. Yes. Especially on this journey that we've set out for so so many folks cuz in society of like, you go to school and you get that you get your high school done, and then you go to undergrad, and then maybe you go into corporate and you go on that ladder, or maybe you go to grad school and you go on that ladder. So when you sort of realize like, Oh, I'm not going to stay on this ladder, Oh, no. What now?

  Rebecca Arnold 5:17

  Right.

  Erica D'Eramo 5:18

  Yeah.

  Rebecca Arnold 5:18

  And some of these letters are very long. I mean, the fact that academic faculty I work with have been in their field for 20 years sometimes and are on the tenure track, and then are looking at am I even interested in this field of study anymore? Which causes a whole reckoning with the choices? A person may have made it 25.

  Erica D'Eramo 5:37

  Right. Right. Right. And introduces elements of grief and yeah, and identity, like you mentioned. Yeah. So you've talked a little bit about what drew you to this work. Tell me a little bit more about, you know, what makes it important to you.

  Rebecca Arnold 5:55

  I have this sort of notion that if you know, that idea that the medicine that's needed for the planet exists on the planet itself, I have a similar thought about humans that if everyone were actually able to access their gifts, talents, the lessons of their experiences, and bring that unapologetically, we would be able to solve our most pressing challenges on the planet, in our communities in our families. But there's so much energy wasted with stifled passion, intention and gifts, that we all miss out. And I am so committed to people being able to access the part of them that may have they may have cast aside a long time ago or might not feel entitled to lean into and recapture that energy for their own benefit. And for all of our benefits. So that is what lights me all the way up. And I get pumped when I'm working with people who are ready to make the shifts that that might require. And I just love watching the cascading impacts of those changes for folks in their workplaces and their families in their communities. You can watch it happen. Yeah, sure. You have a similar experience with your clients too.

  Erica D'Eramo 7:16

  Yeah, absolutely. And I think I've I've been going on this kind of evolution in my coaching and consulting journey. But it sounds very similar in that, you know, I started working with individuals. And that's important, right, but I wanted to make system changes. And then I started to work with the systems and organizations. But I've kind of come full circle back to the individuals because they are the agents of change. Right? It is, it is working with these individuals who will shape the world. And so yeah, as coaches, I think we work with, we work one on one with people. But the point is that they have the impact in the world that they want and need to have. So

  Rebecca Arnold 7:59

  absolutely. And I think about the leaders who I support and the 1000s of folks they're responsible for, and their families and their communities and one small shift and how they're showing up has tremendous impact. And so it's so it just seeds, so much possibility for them and for those around them that you can't help but get excited about it as a coach. Yeah.

  Erica D'Eramo 8:27

  Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. So So tell me a little bit more about the concept of being rooted in peace, which is sort of one of the foundational elements of your, your upcoming book. So describe to me what that looks like, what is rooted peace?

  Rebecca Arnold 8:42

  Yeah, so I think about rooted peace from three, it's sort of the constellation of three different elements. The first is this idea of internal peace. So building the capacity to have greater resilience to counteract stress, whether that is through breath, work, through visualization, through connecting with what matters most to you. The second piece is existential peace. Are you living your purpose? Are you aligned with your values holistically in the span of your life? Are you supporting yourself in your day to day, are you breaking yourself down? And then the third piece is relational. The third element is relational peace, which is your relationship with yourself and with other people. And the way that I think about this idea of rooted peace is that in order to have this Mind, Body heart experience of everything feels right in our lives, we really need those three components. And my invitation in this book and always is not to seek perfection, because all of us are working in those three elements throughout our lives. But it's more of a framework for how to look at at what's working in your life, and what's not and what to do about it. And I am really committed to practical things. So there are tons of practices built throughout this framework to support people to have an impact in those three areas.

  Erica D'Eramo 10:18

  Yeah, I don't know how many books I've read that are great conceptually. And in theory, and you finish and you're like, Man, that was such a good read. And then you go back to life as normal, because there was nothing tactical, measurable that you could put into practice and start to embed those over time. So yeah, that's, that's great. So, you know, you sort of took your own journey and stepped off the train, the train tracks. And that probably involved a lot of reframing what you wanted out of life. And it sounds like that's maybe a thread with your clients reframing. So how does this concept shape your concept of success than or how you view success.

  Rebecca Arnold 11:06

  So we are all in the US anyway, swimming in a, in a culture that prioritizes Go, go go capitalism, top dog, all of that stuff. And we have, most of us have grown up with a traditional notion of success that looks like that. But when we think about the things that we actually want, so when people talk about wanting more money, for example, they don't want to jump in a pile of money. I mean, that might be like an interesting experience. But that's not what people are actually after

  Erica D'Eramo 11:39

  So many germs.

  Rebecca Arnold 11:43

  What they actually want is the experience that they think having that money will get them. What they're usually seeking is calm, tranquility, adventure, a life that looks that feels good on the inside, and reflects who they feel like they are. And so when I think about success, it's what are the things that are going to give you the mind, heart and soul experience of awe? And yes, simultaneously. And that's the thing, when I think about for my own kids, what I want for them, that's what I want for them. And I also want for them to know how to pick themselves back up and be a partner for themselves throughout their journey. And so those are some of the pieces of success and the ways that I look at success. And what my clients are really wrestling with often is when they have followed this, these long ladders that we've talked about, and they thought that success will be on the other side and happiness. And then they experience a gap of I am successful, quote unquote, and miserable on the inside. And I'm not Okay with that. I'm sure you're not Okay with that either. And when I think about rooted peace, the objective is to get people that alignment of the outside and the inside their experiences. Meech, yeah,

  Erica D'Eramo 13:07

  I mean, I think that, right, that it's such a complex discussion, because especially in a right, we live in capitalism, and and Maslow's hierarchy of needs, we need a roof over our heads, and we need food. And sometimes we can't take that for granted, especially with inflation and everything happening. And also, this acknowledgment that even once you start to meet the lower baseline, Maslow's hierarchy of needs, we start to explore those upper echelons of it. And if you don't have those, either, you still won't have what it is that money or titles or whatever is supposed to give us. Yes to be holistic, right?

  Rebecca Arnold 13:52

  Absolutely. Yeah. It's also a piece that I see. I don't know what your experiences with your clients, but I think of it as like an atrophied wanting muscle for folks who are women and other marginalized identities, having a hard time even connecting with what they want, and what is gonna fill them up. That is not from external sources, but is actually comes internally and as deeply felt.

  Erica D'Eramo 14:21

  Yes, yeah, that was that's I just recently with a client had a conversation about, you know, taking a different role, and it would be a lower title, but it would give much more, you know, quality of life, but it would be a step down. But the pay would be the same, you know, and it was it was interesting, because it was like, well, there's nothing wrong with putting value on the title is Are you actively intentionally opting into that as a value or did is this inherited, inherited did somebody give this to you as a value because the structure the system, the organization, they A benefit off of you internalizing that, as you know, tied to your value as a human. But do you actually do that? And it turns out the answer was no.

  Rebecca Arnold 15:10

  Yep. Yeah. I mean, even in our language, right, like a step down, yeah, we're taking a step into a higher quality. Who decided that title was a step down? So it's embedded throughout?

  Erica D'Eramo 15:25

  Yeah, that was my client's language, not mine. Right. Like they that was? Yeah. Which is is such a signal to to win how we view that? Yeah, it's like, well, you know, how much money would you pay for peace of mind? And let's put $1 amount on that to, for you to see just how valuable it actually is for you.

  Rebecca Arnold 15:48

  Right? I mean, when you think about, sometimes I do this thought exercise with clients, like, what is this? What is this job actually costing you? And we go through? Well, I have to go to the doctor three times a year to check on this thing. That is, I'm not paying any attention to, I need to take these expensive vacations to recover, I have to have coverage for my kids, because I'm not able to show up for them in the way that I want. I have to, I spent a lot of frivolous money because I'm trying to numb out. Right. And when you start to add all that up, it is deeply expensive to not be aligned with what you actually want. Yeah,

  Erica D'Eramo 16:28

  yeah. I know that the compounding interest on wellbeing is probably something that we can't calculate. Wow. Yeah. So you know, what are some ways that you feel folks can, you know, use the wisdom and the power that they inherently have to go from maybe where they're at right now to building something that looks more sustainable for them.

  Rebecca Arnold 16:55

  So one piece, which dovetails on what we were just talking about is, I call this notion dancing with mortality. We have this idea that mortality is so far off, and for most of us, and it is just a lie, we tell ourselves to get through the day, which of course we have to right, if we were every moment thinking about our mortality, we wouldn't be able to function, right? And we we sort of cast mortality, we kind of cover our eyes and look away. And what I often invite people into is to have the sense of dancing with mortality, which looks like bringing it a little more into your conscious awareness. Like maybe once a week, hey, I'm X number of years old, how many more years do I actually have left? And how do I want those to look? And there's a zooming out quality that happens at a reprioritizing that happens as soon as we start to have that kind of a conversation.

  Erica D'Eramo 17:53

  Yeah, I mean, there's a, I don't want to call it a trope. But this it's kind of well known now that you know, the astronauts that get to see the earth, from afar have this complete existential shift about, you know, where we are and what a miracle it is that we even exist. And for me that dancing with mortality, anyone who's listened to the podcast for a while has heard me tell the story about like, snapping into a helicopter see, and sort of having it front of mine that there had been a bunch of helicopter crashes in the industry and beyond what if this helicopter goes down? Did I do what I wanted to do in life? Well, I have regrets on the way down, like, certainly sadness and fear, but like regrets about how I spent my time. And the answer was yes, that day, and it was a real, like, wake up call for me. And anyone who's dealing with illness, or anytime we hear these things in the media about, or in our communities, even about, you know, like, mass shootings or just real tragedies, it's a, it's a reminder, like tomorrow is not, tomorrow is not a given. Absolutely.

  Rebecca Arnold 19:04

  And it puts that email you've been fighting over into the perspective it needs to be in. And it's so easy to kind of slingshot back into our day to day. So the invitation is just to periodically bring it into your awareness. Another piece that I another kind of practice that I think about in terms of activating the wisdom that you hold inside is we have most of my clients and I'm sure this is your experience, too, that kind of operate from the neck up. And we're so used to relying on our brain in Western culture. Of course, our brains are delightful. And there is

  Erica D'Eramo 19:42

  I don't know Speak for yourself

  Rebecca Arnold 19:48

  or frustrated with mine too. And there is so much wisdom, intuition, understanding from the neck down that we often to now And so, most, most of us are kind of under practiced in paying attention to the signals that our body is giving us. And it is one of the quickest ways to access our intuition and help us make reprioritize and make some of the critical decisions in our lives. And so I often work with folks to kind of re kind of forge a new relationship with the wisdom of their bodies. And that can look like when you have an ache talk, I know that sounds a little wacky, but talking to your ache, what are you trying to tell me? What do you need me to know? And as you start asking, those kinds of questions, your body will start to answer. So there's, this is a whole realm. I mean, your somatic practice is a whole realm that has so much richness, and is not talked enough about I think, in leadership kind of spaces and circles and within organizations.

  Erica D'Eramo 20:56

  Yeah, there's a an author named Lisa Feldman Barrett, she wrote, yeah, how emotions are made. And so as you're talking through this, it's just reminding me that, like, our brain is interpreting a lot of things. And it's really just reading what's happening in our body that's, that is happening in order to keep us alive. Yep. And then we add context, we add meaning we add history. And then we come up with a word and we say, Oh, I'm scared, or I'm this, or I'm that. But really, it's the things are happening in our bodies. And then we can be more reflective and intentional about that and more observant.

  Rebecca Arnold 21:38

  Yeah, it's so interesting to me, I don't know if that you've had this experience, but lots of books talk about the need for emotional intelligence, and social intelligence and all of that. And oftentimes, that work can be intellectual in a way that is great, and is missing the complementary piece of, if it's hard for you to identify the imprints of different emotions in your body, it's very hard for you to be compassionate and empathetic with other folks and understand your own emotional interior life. And so of course, there can be a gap in collaboration and communication and teamwork and all those things that our leaders and organizations value so much.

  Erica D'Eramo 22:21

  Yeah, yeah. That the word interoception a lot of like, throw that out there. A lot of people are not familiar with that word, but it means right, being able to know what is happening in your body. And if that's not, there's a reason it's called a practice, right? This is not something that you just decide tomorrow, I'm going to be aware of what's happening in my body. So that's why working with a coach, like yourself can be so valuable, because it's bringing back to that like coming back using the practices being building that awareness over time. And it's a muscle that we build in a way, right? Absolutely. Yeah. So how do you feel folks can start to own their own capabilities, you know, even when they're in a work environment, that's maybe not sending them the most positive messages or can be filled with, you know, a lot of either toxicity or just criticality. And so, what's some advice you have?

  Rebecca Arnold 23:17

  Yeah, so I love this question. Thank you. There are so many small practices that can make a huge impact. And one that I love is simply at the end of the day, writing down three wins you had that day, it can be I smiled at a jerk today. From that to Iraq to that presentation, right, it can be as micro as you want to make it or as macro as you want to make it. But one of the opportunities of a practice like that is that if you know what's coming at the end of the day, you'll start to look for your wins throughout the day. And it's a very simple way of counteracting a toxic culture, not that this is going to fix everything. Of course, the toxic culture is systemic, and it's not an individual's responsibility to metabolize that. And while you are working in that system and trying to either negotiate, change or negotiate your out, there are practices you can do to start feeling incrementally better. And this is one of them. So it will start to counteract your our all humans have a natural negativity bias, it will start to counteract that and we'll start you'll start to notice the cumulative winds you have throughout the day and throughout the week. And I love watching and my clients when they start to do this initially, some of my clients are resistant. I don't know if you have this experience, but people are so used to beating themselves up they worry if they stop, they're going to fall apart.

  Erica D'Eramo 24:49

  Yeah, I Yes. I think that that is such a fascinating thing to explore as well because it's almost like you know, the Marie Kondo like Okay, take that parasites think it for what it's done for you and send it on its way. And I feel like that sometimes with our hyper criticality, these voices that we've developed over time, it's probably kept us safe. They probably helped us Excel especially over, you know, high performers, overachiever, overachievers. And so like acknowledging the role it played, because we don't want to demonize it mean, recognizing that it's no longer only option, and it's probably not really serving us that effectively going forward. So exploring what that might look like. But I, I really appreciate this framing versus I know that there's a lot around gratitude. And I, I know, there's a lot of research around the effectiveness of gratitude practice. But I love this idea of like capturing your wins, that you are proud of, because it's a reminder, that builds confidence in your own capabilities. Because confident we know right? Like confidence doesn't come from just telling yourself, you're confident I hate this narrative for women, like just believe in yourself. No, look at the evidence, there's evidence there that you are amazing. Go look.

  Rebecca Arnold 26:12

  And the what I would add, so this applies actually to gratitude practices, and also to practice like writing down your wins. If you write down your wins, and then allow yourself a few moments to experience the the sensations of pride in your body of having accomplished those wins, it will stay with you longer and have a bigger impact. Rick Hansen, I'm sure you've read Rick Hansen's work like neuro Dharma and the pursuit of happiness, I think it's called looking on my bookshelf. He talks about this practice of with gratitude, if you hold on to it longer, a little longer, and let it soak into your body. It has such a richer impact than just writing down a list of gratitudes. And then moving on to your email. Right, which totally makes sense, right? We hang on to it in a positive way. Yeah.

  Erica D'Eramo 27:05

  I could see folks listening in and especially those like hardened corporate folks. This all sounds woowoo to me, blah, blah, blah, no, like, man, it's in this really isn't the science. And fundamentally, it comes down to surviving into the life you want to be living because so much of detaching from what's happening in our bodies and detaching from that flight fight or flight response means that are we stay in that right? We are constantly in a just soaked with cortisol, and we're more at risk for chronic illnesses or more at risk for toxic behaviors towards the people around us, whether that's family, employees, colleagues. So there are very practical and sound reasons that taking this like internal view, embracing some of these mindsets. They have like, very immediate impacts on our lives and in our performance. And yeah, yep. Yeah,

  Rebecca Arnold 28:12

  I had a client who when we talked about this wins practice, they said, I don't need a parade to do my job, which I totally heard. I was like, I totally hear that. And will you? Are you willing to experiment for a week and see how it goes? Right? Just a week, there's no, there's very little cost. And we have this fascinating conversation after of the reluctant admission that it was supportive. And so it's there is very little cost to trying some of these practices and very big upside. So I have worked with folks kind of across the gamut from, you know, big law firms, to superintendents to faculty at, like higher ed institutions. And many of my clients are initially reluctant, and then they see the impact. So I hear you, I hear you corporate folk who are feeling a little resistant to this. And what's the cost, right?

  Erica D'Eramo 29:13

  Yeah, I mean, there's so much power and curiosity of taking that experimenters mindset of setting. Sure your hypothesis might be that this is a bunch of BS, but you know, let's see what happens. And if it's effective, it's effective. Yeah, yeah.

  Rebecca Arnold 29:29

  One piece of science that I like to give folks who are feeling reluctant is when you walk into it takes one grumpy person to ruin a meeting. Right? We know that our moods are contagious, more so than viruses even you don't need six feet with a mood, right, that can translate across a huge ballroom.

  Erica D'Eramo 29:49

  Just nothing. Yeah, totally, totally. And so

  Rebecca Arnold 29:54

  think about what's just what's happening in some of those interactions that throughout your day with your boss. or in a meeting with your senior leadership team or your customers. And if you were coming from a place with just 2% more calm, for example, what would be the impact of them?

  Erica D'Eramo 30:13

  You know, I just had a chance to catch up with them, like a long term mentor of mine, and we were talking about, you know, just navigating traffic and stuff. And she was saying that, you know, well, this is driving on the highways of Houston, so I will give it some context. But she was saying, you know, like, I just was trying to merge on the highway, and they wouldn't let me on the highway, you know, or like, they wouldn't let me off and, and then I finally had to cut in because I needed to get off the exit. And then they got all like Rayji, and like, blaring on the horn and, and all this stuff. And then that puts me in a crappy mood. And I just want to like, cut the next person off. And this just extrapolates and goes on and on. And but she had that awareness to be like, oh, oh, I'm, I'm like replicating this now. Yeah, and internalizing it, I gotta let that go. But how many people don't have that awareness to stop and say, Oh, wait, I don't need to replicate this. I don't need to internalize it. I'm going to complete the stress cycle, I'm going to scream in my car, play some music, or do whatever it takes. But I don't need to pass this on to other people. A lot of people don't have that awareness. Yes.

  Rebecca Arnold 31:20

  Yeah, what I really appreciate about your example is, it's sort of an it's an example of the micro stressors that build up throughout the day. So a lot of us think about the stress of a big presentation, or a huge board meeting, but not those tiny moments of the email that makes your stomach acid royal or being cut off in traffic. And there's a researcher named Richard Boyatzis, who studies this and he says, we have 12 of these a day or something like that. And if we're not allowing ourselves the recovery time, these are just accumulating throughout their day. So no wonder you walk in the door. Grumpy Pants, right? Who What did so yeah, so there are just so many opportunities throughout the day to build in just moments of restoration to counteract the stress, we're all swimming and all the time,

  Erica D'Eramo 32:09

  which is different to then I'm just gonna let it go. I'm just gonna let it go. I'm just gonna like how many times a lot of us have built that in, especially people dealing with microaggressions you know, like having to pick your fights and deal with that day in and day out. And you stay, I'm just gonna let it go. But like, it's not it. There's a difference between actually being able to allow things to roll off of you versus just forcing yourself to censor a reaction and yeah, underlying it up, and then it comes out later.

  Rebecca Arnold 32:40

  Absolutely. Yeah. It's like, pseudo pseudo processing. One of the one practice I love and this is probably, Lisa Feldman, Barrett. Barrett did emotional granularity, right?

  Erica D'Eramo 32:57

  Yeah, I think she did do quite a bit on national granularity. So

  Rebecca Arnold 33:01

  even just the practice of saying to yourself, I am frustrated. Yep. And just naming it clearly allowing yourself to experience that and if you need to move on, you move on. But there's a reaction that happens systemically for us of you can feel your shoulders relaxed when you validate your own feeling that you're experiencing.

  Erica D'Eramo 33:26

  Yeah, we I just hosted a workshop earlier in the week and one of my like, giveaways or whatever was the feelings we'll I joked that we need to, like all print this out in in large poster format and put it on our wall so that we can walk over and be like, Okay, it's not just I'm mad, right? It's like, Okay, let's go a little more granular what is that? Because yeah, granularity and the ability to verbalize it is highly tied in the research to resilient outcomes. So, yeah, and we don't develop a lot of that vocabulary awareness in our day to day lives or society, especially not for men. Like, I'm just gonna say it right. We really don't expect that or require that a lot of, you know, the male tropes in our society. It's good for you. Because I,

  Rebecca Arnold 34:21

  we have I mean, you joke, but we have an emotion wheel on the bulletin board in my kitchen that has prime real estate. You can tell I'm a coach. My kids roll their eyes, and sometimes they walk over to it and are sort of looked quizzically trying to identify which is the exact thing they're feeling. And that's what I want them to do. That's what I want for all of us.

  Erica D'Eramo 34:42

  Yeah. Is it frustration? Is it resentment? Is it like enjoy all the Oh, yeah. All the things? Yes.

  Rebecca Arnold 34:49

  I mean, it's both what I love about the for your folks who are feeling resistant. What I also appreciate about this naming specifically, what you're feeling is not just that it comes Our system but also, it points us toward a clearer answer. Right? If you're angry versus jealous, there's a different solution that is baked into that emotional experience. But if you're just calling everything angry, you're missing the subtlety that points to what you should do next.

  Erica D'Eramo 35:16

  Yeah, yeah. There's so often when when you really get to the underlying description of it, the granularity of it, there's so often an aha moment, right? Because angry versus resentment. Okay, what is it that we're feeling? Or is it do we really want to buy into that? Is that really within our value system, or angry because I've been wronged, and I'm hurt, my feelings are hurt. That's like a totally different pathway to resolving that or integrating that. So? Yeah.

  Rebecca Arnold 35:47

  So for your listeners who manage teams, if you start to paying a pay attention, in your one on ones are in your meetings to how people are verbalizing their experiences, you will start to notice what are some common emotional themes? And where you're missing opportunities to dig a little deeper into where are some solutions to what's going on for folks?

  Erica D'Eramo 36:11

  Yeah, yeah, I love that. So what's one way that you would, you know, help folks to cut through all the noise, right, and to just like, prioritize, you know, what they? What's the impact they want to have on the world?

  Rebecca Arnold 36:27

  So I love the question. If you knew you were gonna die in two years, what remains undone? And there's when I ask clients that question, there's, it's almost like, we immediately entered another plane of conversation, and thought, of course, right. So that's one very quick way to access it. Another approach, and I'm sure you do this with your clients, too, is visualization, and how quickly we can tap into our deeper levels of knowing and values when we kind of slow ourselves down and imagine the future that we want to create. And there's a there's a quality of conversation and insight that happens through visualizations, that is completely different from thought based questions like, what's your five year plan? Right? That's a totally different conversation, than having the experience of a visualization of imagining five years in the future. Who are you with? What's lighting your heart on fire? What's filling you all the way up? Who are the what are the relationships that you delight in? Right? There's all this that's accessible through visualization. So those are just a couple of ways. There are lots of others. But I think it really takes some awareness that we are, it's almost like our day to day life is static. And you know, when they're static in the background, you don't notice it until it's done, and your whole body exhales. That's what we're in all the time, right? When we think about all the inputs that we experience throughout the day. And it's so important to carve out these quieter moments of reflection, whether that is journaling, where you just let yourself riff, whether that is doing visualizations, or a grounding practice, there are so many ways to cut through the noise and reconnect with yourself and what matters most.

  Erica D'Eramo 38:27

  Yeah, I think it's, it's also, when we talk about some of these practices like visualization, I'm sure that there's like a YouTube we could watch or something. But working with somebody who understands and can and can guide some of this can be really helpful because I know I sat down in in a session one time and it I was in a period of flux. I had a lot of anxiety at the moment. And it was just like an open ended visualization about like, Okay, now project yourself forward one year, what's happening, and I was not in the heads, you know, like I needed more structure. I was not in the headspace for that, because it ended up just like amplifying all the anxiety. Like I'm living under a bridge I have, you know, everybody's around me has died, like all these awful things. But when you have somebody who a you've worked with for a while they understand what's important, and they can help guide that process so that you're you are envisioning what it is that success looks like what does it feel like? It can help you really get clear on like, what it is that you're actually trying to strive for, versus just, you know, some title or some job or some house? Yeah,

  Rebecca Arnold 39:34

  yeah. I mean, even each of those things, is the experience you want to have in those right. It's not the house. It's not the title. It's right. What are you what are those a signal for and that's what we both do in our coaching is to look beneath kind of what are those top layer things that folks are pointing to to excavate what's underneath that that they're really craving and wanting? Right?

  Erica D'Eramo 39:59

  Those are the those are the means to the ends. So once the ends, because there's probably other means that might be more effective to get you there. So, no, sorry, go ahead.

  Rebecca Arnold 40:12

  No, I was just gonna say I one thing that I one practice I really love is looking for where we are bringing in the How to soon. And I call it the how monster and my daughter made this awesome visual that I will I will send you a little clip at some point. But we think that how is this innocent little question that just crops up to help us plan. But what happens is before we can even articulate what we get into the how. So let's say we want a title of some kind. And then we start to riff on how but how can I have this conversation with my boss? What is that going to look like? When is that going to happen? Bob about and we just get more and more stressed before we even allow ourselves to articulate? What is the title and why and what can that look like and what is possible and what is available in that position. And then we crush any hope of articulating what we want. Because of this, how sort of picking apart energy that can happen. So I often invite people to set how aside, especially for folks who have an atrophied wanting muscle and just allow yourself to articulate the thing that you want.

  Erica D'Eramo 41:27

  Yeah. Yep. And chances are it's some state of being right. It's not. And the other things are the way that you think you'll get to that state of Yeah, but yeah, yeah. So I want to make sure our listeners can connect with you and learn more and find your book. So where can they find you? What's what are the ways that you have folks connect with you.

  Rebecca Arnold 41:53

  So you can find me at route with two O's, coaching consulting.com. And at route coach on Instagram, and then my book, The routed renegade will be available on any platform, you're sort of looking for June 10, and beyond. So I am thrilled to launch this into the world. And there are so many practices built into that. But there are over 50 practices in that book. And it's sort of my offering love letter to the world opportunity to have folks have a guide book to support you as you go through your journey, that the biggest compliment to me would be a having my books binding cracked dog ear. So my hope is that any of you who pick it up, we'll turn to it again. And again, when you're wrestling with different things, trying to articulate what you want looking for different practices, there's so much in there. And I would love to hear from any of your audience that it resonates with and, and all of that. So thank you for for pointing your audience there.

  Erica D'Eramo 42:59

  Yeah, absolutely. And we'll link to link to your accounts and how folks can connect with you. And we'll be sure to include it in our monthly book list as well. So, so yeah, for anyone looking to find those links, you can find them in the show notes. You can find them on our website, or this podcast episode. And that's at twopiersconsulting.com. And again, thank you so much, Rebecca, for coming on and sharing all your insights and in frameworks really, really appreciate it.

  Rebecca Arnold 43:29

  Of course it was it has been a delight.

  Erica D'Eramo 43:32

  And we look forward to seeing everyone next episode.

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Rebecca Arnold is a professional, certified coach and the founder of Root Coaching & Consulting, LLC, a holistic leadership coaching firm. She’s also the author of The Rooted Renegade: Transform Within, Disrupt the Status Quo & Unleash Your Legacy (Greenleaf Book Group, June 10, 2024). The book is part call to action, part roadmap, and part step-by-step guide to creating a joyful, harmonious life that meets the challenges of our times. 

Her clients are mission-driven leaders seeking holistic success in the fields of education, medicine, law, academia, and social-impact organizations. An attorney by training, Rebecca has a background in education policy. 

But more importantly, she’s known as a “straight-talkin’, big-hearted” coach. In addition, Rebecca is a dog mom, a human mom, and a spunky wife. 

She was a Presidential Management Fellow at the US Department of Education and a special assistant to the Assistant Secretary for Career, Technical, and Adult Education. In those positions, she focused on reform initiatives for high schools and community colleges. She has worked with numerous social-impact organizations in the education and social justice arenas. She holds a JD from Northeastern University and a BA from Brown University.

The Rooted Renegade

Introduction

In this enlightening podcast episode, we delve into the realm of personal growth and leadership development with Rebecca Arnold, a seasoned professional certified coach and author. Through her captivating origin story and insightful discussions, Rebecca sheds light on the transformative power of reconnecting with our inner selves to create systemic change in both our professional and personal lives.

Rebecca Arnold's Journey

Rebecca Arnold kickstarts the conversation by narrating her journey from being a burned-out professional in the policy realm to finding her true calling as a coach. Drawing from her psychology roots, she shares how embracing her passion for coaching has not only revitalized her own career but also empowered her to guide others towards fulfillment and success.

Discovering Rooted Peace

Central to Rebecca's philosophy is the concept of rooted peace—a three-part framework for nurturing well-being in mind, body, and heart. Through her work, she advocates for a holistic approach to success, one that transcends mere external achievements and aligns with our inner values and desires.

Prioritizing Well-being and Intuition

Rebecca delves into the complexities of prioritizing well-being and intuition over external validation, challenging societal norms that glorify titles and monetary gains. Alongside Erica D'Eramo, she explores the profound impact of acknowledging mortality and realigning our life goals to foster genuine fulfillment and purpose.

Cultivating Emotional Intelligence in Toxic Environments

Navigating toxic work environments can take a toll on our emotional well-being. Rebecca emphasizes the importance of practices like mindfulness and gratitude in counteracting negativity and enhancing resilience. By fostering self-awareness and empathy, individuals can cultivate emotional intelligence even in the most challenging of circumstances.

Harnessing Emotional Awareness for Stress Management

Rebecca and Erica delve into the significance of emotional granularity—a nuanced understanding of our emotions—and its role in stress management. By honing our ability to identify and process emotions, we can unlock deeper insights and pave the way for meaningful growth and self-discovery.

Clarifying Personal Goals and Desires

In the pursuit of success, Rebecca encourages listeners to redefine their notions of achievement and articulate their true desires. Rather than fixating on external markers of success, she invites individuals to explore their passions and values, offering practical tools for personal growth and fulfillment.

Conclusion

As the conversation draws to a close, Rebecca Arnold leaves listeners inspired to embark on their own journeys of self-discovery and transformation. With her forthcoming book, "The Rooted Renegade," she promises to equip readers with fifty actionable practices for unlocking their full potential and embracing a life of rooted peace and purpose.

Through Rebecca Arnold's illuminating insights and heartfelt anecdotes, this podcast episode serves as a beacon of hope for anyone seeking to chart a path towards personal growth, resilience, and authentic leadership.